Re: The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate

**TimCaulton** Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:15 pm

seen one on TM today just by chance.......I feel the force is strong in this one.

**collectiques** Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:03 pm

it might be strong but does it have a blimmen CL backstamp? lolol

**TimCaulton** Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:17 pm

nope its just the same as my other blue one....but its got a lid!!

**collectiques** Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:27 pm

I found it!...

I see you're now amassing a small collection of ginger jars now TTT... hehehe

**TimCaulton** Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:34 pm

Yeah well I need something for my bowling ball to hit.......just think about all those shards turning up somewhere in New Lynn while they are excavating the new railway tunnel....hmmm have a feeling there is a flaw in that plan....can't quite figure it out.

**collectiques** Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:03 pm

TimCaulton wrote:Yeah well I need something for my bowling ball to hit.......just think about all those shards turning up somewhere in New Lynn while they are excavating the new railway tunnel....hmmm have a feeling there is a flaw in that plan....can't quite figure it out.

So what do you reckon from a "clay" perspective Tim... ? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on similarities if any...

Anyone else who has perhaps a Crown Lynn marked version or stickered version?

- Anything further more than ginger jar shards being dug up at the site ...because so far thats all we have ...

I'm still a non believer but thats just my opinion - so feel free to post your thoughts/proof if there is any you've come across flower

we'd love to hear it ...

Guest Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:39 pm

These seem pretty similar:

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Clp_gr10

Tom Clark told Gail Henry he'd made ginger jars. It's probably mentioned in both her books and in her archives which are in the Auckland Museum.

**TimCaulton** Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:09 pm

tonykoni wrote:These seem pretty similar:

Tom Clark told Gail Henry he'd made ginger jars. It's probably mentioned in both her books and in her archives which are in the Auckland Museum.

What's the clay body like on these tonykoni ?

Guest Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:56 pm

Where they have no glaze or only a transparent glaze the body is a similar white. The Seppelts bottle has a clear glaze over the base apart from the rim it stands on. The Kienhua one only has the green glaze on one edge of the base. There's no transparent glaze on most of it and it the body looks to be slightly darker that the bottle.

The interior of the lid is a range of whites, mostly due to staining it seems and it feels coarser to the touch than the base of the jar. The edge of the lid is the same colour as the bottle. The inner necks of both are the same. Giving them both a good clean might change how they look though. The inside of the jar has a transparent glaze but it's filthy.

What should I be looking for specifically to make a comparison? There's no sign of T3s, time travel or other non-human intervention. Is there standard terminology for describing clay bodies?

Guest Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:31 pm

Would photos of the bases be any help for comparing the bodies, Tim?

I don't have much success with backstamp snaps but I could give it a go.

**TimCaulton** Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:15 am

Well I guess just a visual inspection of the clay.....compare one with the other to see if there is a match. I guess it's easier when there is something to look for like rocks or iron sand. I'm no expert but I would look at the unglazed area on the base if there is any and go from there. From what I have read about clay bodies, you have to use certain glazes and clays otherwise there might be technical problems with the glaze-clay boundry...eg crazing, peeling, crawling...so the idea is if one pot has the same clay and glaze and another pot is also the same....you have a better chance that there might be a connection. Potters who work with clay are much better at this sort of thing. On saying that I am at most a complete novice....but it helps with my studio pottery collecting. I have talked to potters who can recognise Crum clay for instance. And I bought a Janet Leach vase not long ago. There is a description of a similar one in a book and it goes into the characteristics of the clay Janet used, the way she glazed, and how the vase was made. My vase fits all the criteria. I'm not sure if photos would be very helpful in this case as I imagine both are rather white clays...which are always hard to photograph....If it was me I would get a magnifying glass out and have a closer look. What does anyone else think anyway? I feel like I'm talking about something I don't know much about....makes me feel uneasy.

Guest Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:01 am

I've tried taking photos of the bases. There's no unglazed clay on the bottle and only a small patch on the ginger jar. You're right about white clay being hard to photograph. Some shots came out with a pink tinge, some bluer than others and some yellower. I think the clay body comparison is best done in real life by a potter. They look the same to me but then I don't know a brick pit from a hole in the ground.

I've got a Seppelts bottle with a tan clay body and white glaze but that's a whole other kettle of frit.

**shazz** Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:43 am

taking a photo of an item for true colour works heaps better outside under natural light if that help's Very Happy

**TimCaulton** Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:32 am

shazz wrote:taking a photo of an item for true colour works heaps better outside under natural light if that help's

And I think the reason for this is that digital cameras are not so good when it comes to indoor light and focusing. When I was doing my potters marks project I found brilliant sunlight on the mark and at an angle to get some shadows was the best method to get a good clear shot up close.....well that and not trying to hold the pot while you take the shot. But if your camera has white balance make sure you set it to the right lighting type where ever you happen to be taking the shot.

Guest Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:01 am

This is what the bases look like:

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Kienhu10

and

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Seppel10

It occurred to me that even if the clay body seems identical couldn't that just mean that the clay was from the same source? Does the firing have much effect on the final appearance of the body?

**TimCaulton** Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:34 am

Ok I just placed my ginger jar on my scanner and did a few 1200dpi scans.

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Baseofgingerjar

This is of course the base

Next a closeup of the unglazed rim which would have been placed on the kiln shelf

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofunglazedarea

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofunglazedarea

Next a closeup of the clear glazed base showing the specks of different colours in the clay....almost like a fingerprint of the clay body

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofglazedbasearea

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofglazedbasearea

And finally another closeup of the unglazed rim showing the way the pot was finished, note the lines in the clay. This could indicate how the pot was finished and so if other pots were finished in this same way you are closer to a match.

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofbaseglazeunglazedboundry

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Closeupofbaseglazeunglazedboundry

**TimCaulton** Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:40 am

tonykoni wrote:This is what the bases look like:

and

It occurred to me that even if the clay body seems identical couldn't that just mean that the clay was from the same source? Does the firing have much effect on the final appearance of the body?

Well yes that's what I would probably think...did crown lynn mix up their own clay bodies? I would imagine they wouldn't need to import clay from other places. And as China has its own good clay supplies it wouldn't need to import clay form anywhere else either.

Not sure about the different clay firing thing....a potter would know.

Guest Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:02 pm

China? I don't think anything at all was being imported from China at the time Crown Lynn was making the Kienhua jars. I think there were import restrictions in place and that China was generally perceived very negatively in "the West".

**collectiques** Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:48 pm

I recently had the good fortune to meet a lovely man who worked at Crown Lynn for many years. I spent several hours pouring over his notes. It was like taking a walk through the old Crown Lynn factory, every step of the Crown Lynn production process - just awesome!

I showed him a photo of a Keihua ginger jar during our chat and he said he didn't recognise them at all.

I asked him about a possible Chinese backstamp and he said he really didn't think so.

He started work at Crown Lynn in 1964, progressing from cadet to Head Chemist then various management positions.

In his opinion they were not Crown Lynn glaze colours.

As this person is a member I've protected his identity by not giving his user name - if he wants to do that he can.

Hope that helps this discussion Very Happy

**collectiques** Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:52 pm

I spent some time chatting to Manos at Drummonds Antiques recently (Anzac Ave, Auckland). In short he said he is convinced the Kienhua jars are Crown Lynn and then pulled out this little beauty for me to photograph...

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Ginger10

The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate - Page 3 Ginger11

Well we now know for sure that Crown Lynn made ginger jars - we finally have evidence of a backstamp cool

I compared the feel of the clay - it felt very very similar but the size was a little different. I understand though that the moulds could have a 20% loss on them ...so size difference isn't unusual. The pictures (on the jars) are slightly different but again the guys would cut away from the moulds so not unusual to have slight differences.

Thanks to Manos and Jim at Drummonds Antiques for shining some light on the debate - by the way they have a great sale on at the moment - 30% off well worth checking it out waterski

**TimCaulton** Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:36 pm

So Crown Lynn might have copied the Kienhua jar, which would account for the size difference as clay shrinks when it dries and shrinks again when its fired.

**collectiques** Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:27 pm

yes or they might have made them on order for a ginger importer ...Manos is convinced they are Crown Lynn made ...

The why's and how's we haven't worked out yet but at least we've nailed one part ...

the backstamp on a Crown Lynn ginger jar ... cheers

**TimCaulton** Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:42 pm

Be good to find one with Ginger still in it

**collectiques** Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:23 pm

TimCaulton wrote:Be good to find one with Ginger still in it

I wonder how many ginger jars were made with a crown lynn backstamp ...nevermind the ginger! Laughing

**TimCaulton** Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:29 pm

I have a few here I prepared earlier.........

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The Great Crown Lynn Ginger Jar Debate